Right now, downvotes (reduces) don’t federate to (and from?) Kbin instances. This lack of federation makes the downvote counter really inaccurate—a comment that looks like it’s +10 might be -15 when you look at it from lemmy.world.
This leaves me with a few questions:
- Is downvote federation going to be implemented?
- If so, is it a priority or something that’ll happen much further down the line?
- If not, will downvoting be removed?
I think it’s a lot less straightforward than this. While it definitely drowns out the “hivemind” of the wider fediverse, it also creates a bubble within your own instance. If a lot of people outside of your instance think you made a bad comment but few inside your instance do, limited downvote federation creates an inaccurate representation of what people think.
Additionally, having downvotes but limiting their federation makes them extremely unintuitive and only serves to further confuse new users. It’s actively misleading—you’d think that if you see 0 downvotes that nobody clicked the downvote button, but that might actually be 5 people or 10 people or 30 people. At least if you don’t have a downvote counter at all, it’s clear that downvote functionality just isn’t recognized on the instance. I’d much prefer that over a straight up incorrect counter.
I agree that there’s a big problem with how downvotes are used. I personally use downvotes if something is:
In other words, if something isn’t a reasonable contribution to the discussion, I’ll likely downvote it.
However, lots of people seem to use the downvote button as a disagree button. I see this less on kbin.social than I do on other instances, and that could be a potential reason to not federate downvotes. If downvotes are used differently on kbin.social than on other instances, then I can see it making sense to not lump them all together. However, that only makes sense if people on kbin.social aren’t using the downvote button as a disagree button (which they are, just less so than on other instances). And even still, there’s the problem of an unfederated downvote counter still being misleading.
Rambling aside, I see three ways of handling this:
I don’t like #1 very much because then you don’t have a great way of indicating spam, hateful posts, unhelpful comments, etc. outside of reports that only moderators can see. #2 seems really nice, though both it and #1 come with the downside of filtering out negative feedback from instances with downvotes. #3 is also good, though it comes with the problems of downvote misuse.
Might be interesting to have per-instance weighted voting. So local votes would count as 1x, votes from other instances could count as 0.5x, and votes from that one instance that has a lot of vote brigading would count as 0x. Would be useful for smaller, specialized instances that tend to get harassed by outsiders.
Like you mentioned, that could be interesting for specialized instances used by a small group of people, but that wouldn’t work for any general instance due to the vote counters being really unintuitive. If an instance were to do that, I imagine they’d also want to have something you can click that shows how many votes were local, how many were from other instances, how many were blocked, etc.
Actually, that would be really cool and worth doing regardless. Have a voting statistics view for each post where upvotes and downvotes are broken down per instance, and maybe by other criteria too. @ernest
Come to think of it, I think downvotes should become a message to the mod - either delete this unacceptable content, or remove the downvote. I’m not sure what the logistics of that are though - I’d be shocked if there are not serious unintended consequences of that.
If you want to get the mods to take something down, that’s what the report button is for. Downvotes shouldn’t also play that role, especially if they stay as downvotes. That down arrow is inevitably going to be used by a lot of people to express mere disagreement.
I don’t want downvote for disagreement. Learn to debate a point and then leave it. Downvote for disagreement just discourages people from holding forth on complex unpopular positions ,even if they are correct. Of course it is most abused in politics where we can’t objectively give a correct answer, but elsewhere i’ve seen real experts downvoted when they point out the popular narrative doesn’t fit the facts.
I completely agree with you, but as long as there’s have a down arrow button, there are going to be a lot of people who use it for disagreement — especially when the up arrow button is used for agreement. To my knowledge, it’s not as much of a thing among kbin.social users (likely since votes are public), but it’s definitely there, and I imagine poor downvote use will only become more prominent as the instance grows. Thus, it’d be really bad for some people to use and interpret downvotes as a pseudo-report button, as not everyone will use it that way.
EDIT: Typo fix.
But we’re cooler than anyone else. :P
It’s much more important to me to know what kbin thinks about my comment, than it is to know what the aggregate of kbin+hexbear or kbin+lemmy.world thinks.
And if you do want to know you just hit view on original instance and see all the votes.
That’s not really a culture I want to be fostered here on kbin.social. Kbin instances are part of the wider fediverse, and there’s nothing about someone on kbin.social that makes their vote more important than someone else’s vote. If Kbin had a reaction system (like I mentioned in another comment) instead of downvotes, then not federating downvotes would make more sense, as specific “this is spam” or “this doesn’t contribute to the discussion” reactions are more useful than just a down arrow. But the system we have right now is extremely unintuitive to new users and promotes a culture of “Eh, downvotes from people on other instances don’t really matter. What’s important is what people who are arbitrarily on my instance think.”
If you really want to know which votes are local and which ones aren’t, it’d be much better to either
I don’t think instance membership is all that arbitrary. I’m on kbin.social not hexbear or beehaw or lemmy.world for good reason, and it’s not only because kbin is technically better.
It definitely is to some extent, and voting culture isn’t a huge part of why people go to kbin.social. Kbin.social is the main Kbin instance. If someone prefers the Kbin’s UI to Lemmy’s or wants to have microblog support, many will just default to kbin.social. I came here because I thought Lemmy looked ugly and Kbin looked really nice.
When you’re introducing the fediverse to people, a lot of people are just going to go to the default instance, and it’s honestly good advice to tell people to just do that to start out (lest they turn away from the fediverse entirely due to not being able to make a choice). Voting culture has nothing to do with that. Just because someone’s on lemmy.world doesn’t mean their downvotes are worth less than ours, and just because someone’s on kbin.social doesn’t mean they don’t just hand out downvotes in order to disagree.