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The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries’ current heads of state are kinda like “all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.” It’s unclear who is right.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine’s government is not claiming half of Russia.
“Unclear who is right”
No it’s pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?
It isn’t that nuanced. The colonized, subjugated population is rising up rather than laying down to continue getting slaughtered.
Liberate Palestine.
From the river to the sea
I get that there is lot more nuances than russo-ukrainian, but imo there is a lot more similarities than you seem to imply : both Russia and Israel claimed that the land belonged to them before, that they should get it back, and use violence to kill local people who tried to resist or move them. The only difference is that Israel did it with the help of western countries and partially according to their laws, so they get like an aura of legitimity, but the acts remains quite close.
I do not like when people basically do not accept violent behavior but accepts them when they are allowed by some law or authority.
(Also yes Hamas is doing bad things and should be held accountable in some way, just like Ukraine to my eyes. But still, for me it remains obvious who kills more, who steals more, who oppresses more)
As a Ukrainian, let’s sort out what we’re accountable for once we’re not getting genocided. We also have a lot of questions to our own government, but I would still prefer it to the Russian
Its unlcear who is right? Tell me, who lived there first before the US swung its dick around and displaced all of them?
“Lets have some nuance” people on their way to defend Nazi war criminals
It’s unclear who is right.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/
- Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;
Seems pretty clear.
Palestine has attacked territory that was assigned to Palestine by the UN in 1947. The UN also makes it very clear that a country may lawfully recover occupied territory “by any means, including armed force”. UN laws are thus very clear: Ukraine and Palestine can recover territories by force. Now, that doesn’t mean you should support them in their struggle to do so, but if you don’t, it must be for some other reason (e.g., Israel taking over would constitute a huge strategic gain for the US, while Russia taking over would destabilize the world and thus benefit small or weakly aligned players).
all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
Is that the line this week? They’ve been moving the goalposts so rapidly they must be on wheels (and better maintained wheels than the Russian army)
The Russian propagandista changed their lines so many times it’s blindingly obvious that there’s no greater good and it was supposed to be a land-grab just like when they invaded and annexed Crimea
Russias pretext for the war is complete horseshit. They have been supporting the rebels in these breakaway republics that magically appeared just after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Their support went beyond the usual proxy war/hybrid warfare bs, as hundreds of russian armed service men were confirmed KIA in Donezk and Luhansk.
Also there’s not a shred of evidence for the secret nazi government of Ukraine (led by a Jewish president) and Ukraines bid to join nato was 1. Years of not decades from its realization and 2. None of Russias business.
Russias pretext for the war complete horseshit
Why are you arguing with me about Russias pretext, as if I’m telling you I support them? I specifically said I don’t. Stop deflecting please, and argue my actual point.
OK then please clarify what exactly you mean here:
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine.
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
Israel has continuously expanded its settlements on the west bank in the Gaza strip. They did so, citing security concerns, in reality there are probably more religious reasons for doing that. The goal with these settlements is to chip away on territories that belong to Palestine.
Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant. Hamas is massively antisemitic and even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push.
This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to. This seems to bother people and will make the political parts of lemmy pretty insufferable for the next couple of weeks.
You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine
Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.
Whatever “muslim” representation there is in Israel, it is as good as none and does not change that it is an exclusive theocracy. Literally there is no equivalent to their religious exclusivism in any Muslim-majority nation. It is only matched by militant groups like ISIS.
Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant.
Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.
And you don’t have to hypothesize. Before Israel was created, and during the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century and early 20th, Arabs never enacted any genocide against the Jews or did what Israel does today. In fact, European Jews found it to be a safe haven in comparison to Europe.
Hamas is massively antisemitic
Hamas only garners support because it is the only group left putting up a fight. It was never popular before that. But because of that, it has many non-Hamas-ians joining its ranks, and many of them reiterate their support for living peacefully among Jews.
And its important to point out that Hamas only climbed up to this position because of Israeli support more than a decade ago. This is Israel’s own admission. They did not want progressive groups leading the resistance, and propped up Hamas instead. I’d be happy to cite you Israeli officials saying this.
even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push
That doesn’t mean they’re anti Semitic. The operation primarily targeted military installations, soldiers and officials. It is resistance against the Israeli state. So supporting this operation is being opposed to the Israeli state, not because they wish to evaporate all Jews. That’s ridiculous.
This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to.
It is quite the opposite. Russia-Ukraine involves two States with crimes on their records, and I only side with Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor. But Ukraine is far from being a good guy. Israel-Palestine is an apartheid state against stateless people getting murdered and expelled from their lands, and their best fight is minor incursions on the border. It is very much a one-sided fight.
Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine West Bank Muslim 80–85% (predominantly Sunni) Jewish 12–14% Christian 1.0–2.5%, (mainly Greek Orthodox)[8]
Gaza Strip Sunni Muslim 98–99%, Arab Christians 0.2% (2,000 to 3,000 est.), other, unaffiliated, unspecified <1.0% (2012 est.).
At least bother looking some of this stuff up…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine The PFLP has generally taken a hard line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognise the State of Israel, it opposes negotiations with the Israeli government, and favours a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. […] The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States,[10] Japan,[11] Canada,[12] Australia[13] and the European Union.[14]
These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not. Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.
Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.
It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal. And that’s not the first time an arab nation tries something like that, Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened. Also, Israels genocide is a cultural genocide (which is pretty bad) and I wish they didn’t do what they are doing. Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.
I’m not going to bother to continue, go outside and leave lemmygrad for a while comrade. Good night.
At least bother looking some of this stuff up…
I’m not sure which part of those statistics you think contradicts what I said. Can you please quote which part of what I said contradicts it? Your statistics confirm what I said. Go back and read what I said.
These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not.
Is this an argument? I am going to ignore it because I find no substance here, but if there’s something I’m missing, let me know.
Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.
They were very popular before Hamas became the only group left fighting. Check out the PLO, of which they were a part of. Many of the prominent Palestinian figures were part of PFLP as well.
It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal.
I literally just explained to you why it’s not. Feel free to argue my points directly, rather than restate the same statement I already disproved.
Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened
And the second gulf war happened because of their WMDs. We all know how the state department narrative was correct without any issues at all, right? Right?
Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.
Do you want to see the Palestinian child that was burned alive by Israeli fire? I can provide you a link.
I’m not going to bother to continue
That’s good. I prefer if you don’t. It’s not a good look. Please don’t spread misinformation elsewhere either.
Edit: removed implied support for Hamas. Both militaries should burn. Hope for a quick end to the conflict for the sake of the civilians affected.
At the end of the day who is Isreal and who Palestine. If no one who was alive when Palestine was around can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”. It’s like the ship Theseus or something. Maybe I’m just dumb as fuck.
Just make the fuck up and work together instead of being greedy bigots.
can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”
You should tell that to Israel, which is expelling Palestinians from this land every week for decades. It is not the Palestinians who are claiming the land exclusively to themselves and expelling others from it. It is Israel doing that. I find it crazy that you somehow argue this as if Palestine is doing that.
Palestinians lost the wars. Multiple wars. At this point there really isn’t a point in contesting against Israel when they can integrate with Israel peacefully instead.
Israel is not offering “peaceful integration”. Have a look at Palestinians who already live outside of Gaza, in the rest of occupied Palestine. The only choices are leave, suffer or resist.
Palestinians don’t offer peaceful integration either, since they like to resist so much as a group that Israelis don’t know who they can trust.
Your sentence doesn’t make sense. Moreover, the Palestinian stance of most groups has been integration and living together peacefully and happily. “Resisting” their expulsion and the murder against them does not contradict that.
You can’t compare these 2 conflicts at all.
Why? Because the west supports the occupied in one and the occupier in the other? Don’t forget the west expected Ukraine to be an occupied state with a gorilla insurgency within a few weeks at the start of the conflict.
Edit: because I am getting the expected hate. The Palestinians didn’t start out as Hamas. The extremism of Hamas was born out of the lack of action from former moderates. People will always become more extreme when they are met with a lack of action. That goes for the left and the right.
So ask yourself if someone came to your house and told you to leave how angry would you be? If you don’t understand this look up the actions of the Israeli settlements.
Simple, Palestinians are brown and have less resources that America wants/needs.
I’m with both Palestinians and Ukrainians.
Palestine has oil and gas same with Ukraine.
Launching rockets at civilians isn’t glorious whether you’re Russian or Palestinian.
Or Israeli
lemm ee and dbzer0 users on their way to passively support whatever evil regime is in power
lol
Idk if this is a hot take, but imo the war in Ukraine is pretty clear city while the Palestinian and Israeli conflict his an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances.
It’s far less controversial to say the former is Russia’s fault than it is to say the latter is either Palestine’s or Israel’s fault.
No its not that complicated. Israel are straight up shit stains generally speaking. Have been since they immigrated to Jerusalem and then ran a coup with western support. Imagine if Russians showed up in your backyard one day took over your house and then started killing your neighbors. Meanwhile china sitting there going ‘looks good to me guys!’
Swap out relative names with jews and usa.
What nuance is there be had about this? Israel is a settler-colonial apartheid state that deserves what should’ve happened to America when those settlers were doing it. That’s like saying “the civil rights conflict has an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances”; in that it’s objectively wrong.
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Palestinian conflict is very simple: an army vs civilians. Only gonna end when all the latter are dead.
Should we ever try to sanction that army? Never! Should we try sanctioning US for killing million iraqis who had not a WMD? No! Should we sanction Nato for bombing the wealthiest african estate libya to it’s ruin? Ah wait, WE are Nato. Can’t shoot own ankle.
Seems like both armies versus civilians.
There’s not many other conflicts where I can remark “two war crimes don’t make a right” damn near every time.
Hamas is a militia. They don’t have an airforce and whatever else is required to be a military.
I’d urge you to compare the casualties caused by each of the “armies”. Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is.
Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it’s very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you’re just a hypocrite
I haven’t seen anyone here “support Israel”. Almost everyone agrees that the Israeli State is not free of guilt, far from it.
What people really disagree over is whether that alone makes Palestine right (nuanced) and whether it justifies Hamas’ actions (unhinged but unfortunately semi-common take on here).
I mean, if you go further back than 1947/1948, didn’t the Palestinians used to own Israel? Or do we want to go even further back, to about 1200 BCE?
Biden is 100% gonna support “Israel’s right to defend itself”, while they’ve been awfully quiet when Palestani people are getting murdered and their infrastructure decimated 🫣🤫
Fucking fascists
Ppl who have no idea how palestinian conflict started half a century ago commenting like ‘completely different cases!’
Same ppl fifty years later and war continues in Ukraine: ‘ok, now I get it’
It all started with this fuckin’ Serbian dude getting a sandwich…
ho boy, here we go again.
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it. So all I can do is judge both sides by their current actions without historical justification which, to me, results in fanatical religious fascists fighting fanatical religious fascists with neither side caring for civilian casualties. Not exactly a situation in which I’d support any side tbh.
Thank you. There’s way too many people claiming one or the other side is justified or worse and frankly at this point they’ve both committed so many atrocities against one another that it’s hard to have an emotional or subjective response other than, they’re both pretty shitty.
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it.
You know very well who started it. You just want to pretend that historical facts are lost to the sands of time because they’re damaging to your centrist bullshit.
Just out of curiosity what do you think should happen? Should Israel just give up the land to Palestinians? Should Palestinians give up the land to Israel? Should they coexist and if so how do you see that happening? I really am asking because I really don’t understand how “how it started” is going to make a peaceful ending. I also don’t understand why anyone who isn’t from the locality and impacted by it should be stepping in for either side of what amounts to civil war. Especially not America who has a habit of doing so all over the world which usually ends badly for the people who live there when our puppet regimes tank.
Israeli settlers should return to the country that they or their family came from originally. This is not like settlers in the America’s where we are talking 200+ years of families living there. This started after WW2 when the bigoted west could not bear to live with jews even after the holocaust, so they had to send them off on a settler project to other lands. Palestinian lands. Israelis should go back home, and the places they came from should pay for the reestablishing of their families. As well as paying reparations to Palestine. Isreal is not a legitimate nation. It is a colonial project occupying the nation of Palestine and the settlers must leave if there is to be peace.
“Israeli settlers should return to the country that they or their family came from originally.”
Oh? How far back are we going here? What if their family originally came from Palestine? What happens then?
“This is not like settlers in the America’s where we are talking 200+ years of families living there.” This is an interesting point that is literally under contention right now because those people came from somewhere and we don’t even know who was here first because it changes every few years. How many years of settling constitute the land belonging to you?
Where did the Israeli people actually first come from. Go back far enough and crazily enough I think you’ll find that these people do have historical roots in this locality before WW2. This conflict spans probably close to a thousand years. Picking and choosing which bit of history supports your narrative doesn’t invalidate the rest of it.
Both suck to be fair but Israel for me suck less. My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US. Israel though recently leaning more to the extreme right, is still liberal compared to the rest of the nations in middle east. Woman has more freedom under Israel it seems. LGBT is more supported in Israel. For Hamas on the other hand has the same vibe for me with Taliban it doesn’t help that it is supported by Iran and Russia. As for Ukraine I support them since they lean more to the West (EU and the US) and they are more democratic than Russia. That’s my thought anyway.
So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro
Emotional responses don’t lead to any solutions. Only reason will create a peaceful two state solution.
The Victims should never bargain with the invaders. Slava Ukraini Slava Palestini.
And that’s why we will never have peace in the middle east. Both sides argue for violence and both sides only conduct emotional responses.
Ukraine is simply more important to the countries bordering russia, the EU and it’s allies
Ukraine is a sovereign nation that got attacked by another country.
Palestine just carried out a horrible attack on Israel. Plus the history of Israel and Palestine is totally different. It’s just apples and oranges. I’m not claiming in any way Israel is right here, but Hamas is definitely scum of the Earth.
Let’s make a list of all the ways Ukraine is different to Palestine.
We’ll be here a while.
- Ukraine is 7 letters and Palestine is 9
Dumb meme, the 2 situations are not similar.
Yes, one is recent, impacts the West directly and a bunch of white people and the other is Palestine.
How does a long time NATO ally not impact the west exactly? The Israel/Palestine confict has been in the news since I have paid attention to international politics.
That was the point. When it impacts the West directly, the we in the West decide to make things about right and wrong and morals and cook up excuses to throw more and more money because it serves our interests. When it’s Palestine… we decide to throw all of that out of the window and decide fund Israel (the aggressor) instead.
This entire weird conversation aside, Palestine/Israel conflict does not currently affect the West. It could hypothetically escalate until it affected the West I suppose.
Also, Israel is not in NATO. They are a “NATO partner” but are not legally tied to the security alliance.
Nope, try again
They’re not identical but there are many similarities.
I’ve seen so many stupid takes today, and this is one of them. The conflicts aren’t similar!
In what ways are they different that it justifies supporting Ukraine but not Palestine?
No one is saying they’re identical. But there are similarities.
They’re not identical, but they have similarities. What Russia is trying to do to Ukraine is not dissimilar to what Israel did to Palestine half a century ago.
IMO everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone and stop trying to be modern empires, but come on man, these are VERY different situations.
(Edit: what I’m about to say is a good bit wrong, but I’m not going to try and hide my mistakes. This article has a more complete history: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/why-israel-and-palestine-conflict-war-history-b2426050.html)
I don’t support the violence at all, but this isn’t a (direct) result of imperialism.
After WW2, the Allies were like, “what do we do with all these Jews? We don’t want them in our countries.” Then they thought, “why not Jerusalem?” But a bunch of Arabs were living there, but the Allies really didn’t want more Jews, so they just dumped them all in modern Israel, told the Arabs this is Jews’ land now, and recognized Israel as a state. Palestine has a right to be pissed. So this isn’t so much an imperialism problem as much as a racism problem.
But still, Hamas are evil fuckers that take shit too far. Israel definitely is not the good guy and is not helping the situation at all, but this kind of escalation just makes shit worse for everyone.
“why not Jerusalem?”
That wasn’t the allies, zionism predates the holocaust by decades, it’s the literal promised land from their stupid fucking religion.
