I only ever see “both sides are the same” as a atrawman, here. I’ve never seen it presented genuinely, generally I see “I have issues with the Democrats” and the only response is either “but the other guys are worse” and “bOtH sIDeS aRe ThE sAmE!!”
ALMOST as if having an actual conversation about the problems people with the Democrats makes people uncomfortable.
The only things liberals know how to do are using whataboutism to deflect all criticism of the Democrats by talking about the Republicans, and doing genocide apologia.
The DNC has made it clear they’re not interested in moving to the left and that they’re perfectly happy gradually meandering further right. Sure, 30 million Democrats might see it differently but the people voting aren’t actually in charge.
Leftists and progressives do not have the support of moderate and liberals. They made this clear in the 2020 primaries. Anyone to the left of Biden was too radical. Liberals and moderates made it clear again yesterday when they celebrated police breaking up the protestors. When Biden was asked if the protests have made him reevaluate his policies in Israel he simply said “No”.
There’s no room for us in the Democrat party so I’ll be voting 3rd party.
Voting third party for president won’t solve that problem, it will just help, in your case, a more right wing POTUS get into office, one who has proven to be especially dangerous to our democracy. It’s a dumb idea because it’s counter productive to your goals and virtually useless.
If you want better representation you’ll have to work from the ground up by getting people into office that will move to end fptp voting.
You’re trying to play the game with the rules you want it to have, not with the rules it actually has.
Voting third party for president won’t solve that problem
I’m aware I have no way of solving this problem. Never claimed otherwise.
If you want better representation you’ll have to work from the ground up by getting people into office that will move to end fptp voting.
Even if progressives and leftists managed to get a halfway decent candidate through the primaries all that would happen is that liberals and moderates would be the ones who vote Republican, vote 3rd party or don’t show up. We’re at an impasse.
You’re trying to play the game with the rules you want it to have, not with the rules it actually has.
Actually I think that’s what you’re doing. The rules that it has are I get to choose who I vote for. Not you.
I’m aware I have no way of solving this problem. Never claimed otherwise.
Then it makes even less sense to vote for a third party because you know it doesn’t do anything.
Even if progressives and leftists managed to get a halfway decent candidate through the primaries all that would happen is that liberals and moderates would be the ones who vote Republican, vote 3rd party or don’t show up. We’re at an impasse.
I’m not taking about the primary, i’m talking about how the vote is done. If we can get rid of fptp voting system, and replace it with something like star voting, then people are more free to vote for who they want instead of using reason and voting strategically. This is the way to increase the chances of getting more liberal people elected.
The rules that it has are I get to choose who I vote for. Not you.
By no stretch of the imagination did I even remotely suggest I get to choose who you vote for.
I can stay home if that would make you feel better?
This is the second bad faith argument you’ve made. Why?
Never going to happen with the kind of candidates who make it through the primaries.
Which is why I said you have to work from the ground up.
Ok then accept I’m going to vote 3rd party and stop trying to convince me to do something else.
I’m defending being rational and reasonable. Even if it won’t convince you, it might stop some other person who reads this from irrationally acting counter productive to their interests.
Not a bad faith argument, and characterizing it as that is disingenuous.
They’re telling you: the ways in which they are willing to participate in the system is to vote for someone they actually care about, or to let the system run itself into the ground. It’s kindof akin to “live free or die”.
If the mentality of “live free or die” does not sound reasonable to you, you are welcome to pursue your own brand of reason. Clearly, they will pursue theirs.
The issue at hand is that the system stops working when people vote based on perceived power. Yes, we should also work to change the system. But the other person is not at all alone in having little faith in the system - and really, that’s what’s holding the system up, mostly - the faith it constantly breaks.
They will make an argument like my mom where they just think its all rigged anyway, and then vote for the firsf radical they see even if ifs Traitor Trump. You have to realize these people are not even slightly informee
I only ever see “both sides are the same” as a atrawman, here. I’ve never seen it presented genuinely, generally I see “I have issues with the Democrats” and the only response is either “but the other guys are worse” and “bOtH sIDeS aRe ThE sAmE!!”
ALMOST as if having an actual conversation about the problems people with the Democrats makes people uncomfortable.
The only things liberals know how to do are using whataboutism to deflect all criticism of the Democrats by talking about the Republicans, and doing genocide apologia.
If you really want to change the party, JOIN it, convince like-minded people to join, and start changing it from the inside.
You know, like the way Trump and MAGA changed the Republicans.
The DNC has made it clear they’re not interested in moving to the left and that they’re perfectly happy gradually meandering further right. Sure, 30 million Democrats might see it differently but the people voting aren’t actually in charge.
I’ve been doing that for 20 years. Between that and spit in my hand at least the hand with spit has something to show for the effort.
MAGA had the support of moderate Republicans.
Leftists and progressives do not have the support of moderate and liberals. They made this clear in the 2020 primaries. Anyone to the left of Biden was too radical. Liberals and moderates made it clear again yesterday when they celebrated police breaking up the protestors. When Biden was asked if the protests have made him reevaluate his policies in Israel he simply said “No”.
There’s no room for us in the Democrat party so I’ll be voting 3rd party.
Voting third party for president won’t solve that problem, it will just help, in your case, a more right wing POTUS get into office, one who has proven to be especially dangerous to our democracy. It’s a dumb idea because it’s counter productive to your goals and virtually useless.
If you want better representation you’ll have to work from the ground up by getting people into office that will move to end fptp voting.
You’re trying to play the game with the rules you want it to have, not with the rules it actually has.
I’m aware I have no way of solving this problem. Never claimed otherwise.
Even if progressives and leftists managed to get a halfway decent candidate through the primaries all that would happen is that liberals and moderates would be the ones who vote Republican, vote 3rd party or don’t show up. We’re at an impasse.
Actually I think that’s what you’re doing. The rules that it has are I get to choose who I vote for. Not you.
Then it makes even less sense to vote for a third party because you know it doesn’t do anything.
I’m not taking about the primary, i’m talking about how the vote is done. If we can get rid of fptp voting system, and replace it with something like star voting, then people are more free to vote for who they want instead of using reason and voting strategically. This is the way to increase the chances of getting more liberal people elected.
By no stretch of the imagination did I even remotely suggest I get to choose who you vote for.
I can stay home if that would make you feel better?
Never going to happen with the kind of candidates who make it through the primaries.
Ok then accept I’m going to vote 3rd party and stop trying to convince me to do something else.
This is the second bad faith argument you’ve made. Why?
Which is why I said you have to work from the ground up.
I’m defending being rational and reasonable. Even if it won’t convince you, it might stop some other person who reads this from irrationally acting counter productive to their interests.
There is no course of action which is productive to our interests.
As an aside, hypothetically, if you had a choice between:
Which would you choose? You can only pick one and there is no third option in this purely hypothetical situation.
Not a bad faith argument, and characterizing it as that is disingenuous.
They’re telling you: the ways in which they are willing to participate in the system is to vote for someone they actually care about, or to let the system run itself into the ground. It’s kindof akin to “live free or die”.
If the mentality of “live free or die” does not sound reasonable to you, you are welcome to pursue your own brand of reason. Clearly, they will pursue theirs.
The issue at hand is that the system stops working when people vote based on perceived power. Yes, we should also work to change the system. But the other person is not at all alone in having little faith in the system - and really, that’s what’s holding the system up, mostly - the faith it constantly breaks.
They will make an argument like my mom where they just think its all rigged anyway, and then vote for the firsf radical they see even if ifs Traitor Trump. You have to realize these people are not even slightly informee