“Innocent should not die no matter if they were born in Tel Aviv or in Gaza”
“7 of October of 2023 was a terrorist attack”
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
“Blindly supporting muyahidins, I mean, intifada, has not a good historic record”
“A Hamas led Palestine would be very similar to any other Islamic dictatorship, which is not good for Palestinians, specially women and LGBT”
Under any circumstances innocents should die, and anyone (ANYONE) killing civilians is a piece of shit. But the fact that Israel government is a Piece of Shit does not mean that Hamas is not also a Piece of Shit. Some people seems to forget that when it comes to codemn the cruelties inflicted in that region.
If we didn’t signal our virtues, nothing would ever happen.
People MUST speak their feelings about things or the very worst things go unchallenged.
What you meant to say is “Let’s not make me cringe by making me think about things that have deeply divisive social consequences in either one direction or another, yet I keep getting bombarded with messages that I need to take a side on this issue, why can’t I just play video games in peace.”
Perhaps, but this is just mutual masturbation, and Lemmy is a total echo chamber. You can challenge things when you hear them, in the real world. In my experience it helps to treat this as a teaching opportunity, while understanding that you can’t bully people into a different point of view. I don’t play video games.
An entire generation of people have been all but ruined because their parents raised them saying “Don’t believe anything on the internet, it’s not the real world” and as a result it’s become the place where we all get all of our information, opinions and news and do most of our social interactions, and yet have this “out” we can always pull when it makes us uncomfortable.
Don’t like what some people somewhere think or say? Don’t need to engage or weigh in, retreat to a bubble. Don’t like what someone said about your comment? Say the whole thing isn’t real, call light to the “bubble” while still being in it.
It’s so, so many people. Just avoiding uncomfortable realities, repeating lines that sound like they work to stop arguments or discomfort, not actually engaging with anything in a way that would challenge your own feelings or beliefs.
You see - if Hamas would have an upper hand against Israel, it would absolutely direct forces to massacre Jews and kickstart apartheid and everyone would be cheering for Israel and against Palestine.
But here we are, with Israel being bigger and stronger and using its advantage to raze Palestine to the ground along with innocent people who did nothing to deserve this. And that’s why people are pro-Palestine, really.
Also, while women and LGBT folks may suffer in their rights under an Islamic dictatorship, this is kinda better than just being dead. Israel does just that, and many in the Israeli command have made it very clear they do not care about the rights of Palestinian civilians.
I do understand that people tend to feel more inclined to side with the “weak part” of a fight. But being the weak part does not mean being in the right.
Both sides of a conflict can be wrong, even if someone is imposing their wrong on the others by a stronger use of force.
But I know how Hamas would masacrate Israeli civilians if given the chance and I cannot support that.
We need to thing a third way, different to what both sides are currently proposing and trying to do.
I think figures like Gandhi or MLK showed how to fight oppression without going into blatant murder and Jihad.
good thing that Hamas only exists because of Israeli support, not just via suitcases of money, but also due to a thorough expunging of moderate agnostic opposition! and hamstringing the fatwa forces during the Hamas-Fatwa civil war where Hamas took over Gaza (Hamas won some local elections, but at the time it was still part of the Palestinian state)
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
It is not a “conflict zone” and it is not “complicated”. It is classical settler colonialism with the inevitable goal of ethnically cleansing and genociding the native population. By this logic the Nazi “Lebensraum” ideology of invading Poland, systematically murdering not only Jews and other minorities, but death-Squadding entire villages to then settler their own people on the land would somehow be “complicated”.
I suppose we live in different realities where 7 of October never happened or where missiles are not raining every day over Israel trying to indiscriminately killing people
If we live in different realities there’s nothing to argue.
In my reality there has not been found any extermination camps. And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
There’s a conflict, there is a war between two tyrant and radical organizations. Israel Army (Supported by USA) and Palestine Army(Supported by Islamic countries and terrorist organizations), and both are being pretty shitty and trying to exterminate the other one.
And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
IDF is literally making tiktoks braggin about killing unarmed random people. Doctors in Gaza report children executed with single shots to the head, indicating IDF snipers deliberately hunting children. We’ve seen people burned alive, people beheaded, unarmed people hunted down by drones, clearly marked aid convoys blown up, journalists assasinated with precision strikes… And Gaza looks very similar to Stalingrad in being a field of rubble.
The scale is not the same and Israel is not running extermination camps (yet). But on the military side it has a lot of similarities to Eastern Front Wehrmacht.
That happens in Gaza, happens in Yemen, happens in western sahara, happens in Ukraine, happens in Irak and syria, happens in every place there is a war…
It’s not different to any other war. As bad as all the others.
The Holocaust didn’t cause the impression it had because those things. Not because they killed people, but because of the scale and the industrial method of killing those people. Without those two factors killing, torturing, destroying people, and even ethic cleansing is just a Wednesday in any war.
My word! I simply had no idea that 9/11 and all the car bombings performed by ISIS in the late 2000s were not dangerous! You have no idea how much better that makes me feel.
XXI century and people defending Jihadism. Which is literally killing the infidel because your imaginary friend Allah told you so.
I suppose killing innocent and children, and imposing a medieval oppression on society is ok in your moral book if it is for the glory of Allah.
I suppose that you support then the murder of my family members who had died in the Jidhadist bombings in Madrid. The murder of a innocent teacher surely did a lot for resisting the evil west attacking their peaceful countries which surely don’t behead homosexuals.
It looks like you have a lack of understanding of what Jihad even is, as well as the application of Jihad in war.
For example, take this:
killing innocent and children
killing the infidel
Both of these comments wildly contradict Islamic doctrine as accepted by the majority of Muslims - lose the bias for a second and do a bit of research; you’ll see what I mean.
Additionally,
imaginary friend Allah
It’s quite rude to start throwing insults at basically everyone who believes in God based on your own misconceptions, or even otherwise. A level-headed discussion where insults don’t start randomly getting thrown around would do far better for everyone here.
Religion is not real. To myself belief in any God is an insult to human intelligence.
I would never support any religion. As religion is the dead of freedom and a wildcard to torture and oppression.
And religions that support the Holy War are just plain evil.
You tell my what justification there is to call Jihad over my country, as it was called by a Caliphate and we suffered several terrorist attacks over it. My people have been living here since before Mohammed invented his religious scam. What possibly justification does anyone has to kill innocent people to conquer my land for the glory of Allah? People DIED over that, so don’t tell my I’m not understanding things, because I clearly understand that people who were alive are now dead because they called the Jihad on us .
You can say whatever you want but your lies won’t bring the dead from their graves.
Reading your comment, I understand that I cannot clear up the various misconceptions (that I perceive) you have, which seem to be the result of complicated external factors and have deep emotional roots.
Please.
How do you even talk about my “complicated external factors with emotional roots” when you just believe what you believe because you were indoctrinated by a religion, probably since they day you were born.
My morals come from the rational thinking and does not include justifying murder. Can you say the same?
I think you need to be more explicit with your first statements. Any line fewer than 5 words is too vague. It should be long and read like it was scrawled over an entire vehicle.
You won’t be happy with your opinion here. Lemmy is a pretty pro-terrorist place and gleefully ignore what Hamas, Mullah, Taliban (just look at Afghanistan) and all the other did, do and stand for. But thanks for your effort.
Changing one tyrant for another does not make you free.
Also if Israel citizens are “occupying” that place. What do you suggest to do with them are they not welcome there?, illustrate me on the solution, but please do not use the words “final solution”.
Because sorry to break your bubble, Hamas does not propose peacefully coexistence of jews and Muslims on the same land.
Israel is occupying Palestinian land… we want to be free of occuaption. Not sure why you bring Islam into this since Palestinian society is quite diverse and encompasses many different perspectives and religions. I myself am a Palestinian atheist.
My suggestion is: one democratic state of Palestine for Jews, Muslims, Christians, whenever the fuck lives there. Democratic voting, a President.
“final solution” is a now used by Israeli officials to describe Gaza so rofl this is not even a serious convo now. You are just gaslighting and talking to a person in your head.
I would be down with making the whole land a unique democratic state, free to anyone to vote or belief whatever they want like any democratic nation.
But I’m sorry to say that no side of the conflict seeks that. Not Hamas, not the Israeli government. Both just seek total extermination of the other side.
Most of current Palestine is not only Muslim, but also pretty radical about their beliefs, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles, there’s no sugar coating it.
I seek it. I’m one side in this too. There are many Palestinians and many Israelis who just want to have normal lives and full human rights for themselves and others.
I think you then might want to learn more about current Palestine, which is much more diverse than you describe.
Tell me, what should be done about the problem of Arabs and other brown skinned peoples currently occupying your God-given covenant and sacred land? Should the methods of the past be utilized - that they shall be put to the sword, they and their women and children, their livestock and all that loves in that land, their high places thrown down, and the Temple rebuilt?
Firstly if you think Muslims are brown skinned you have an incredibly narrow vision of the world.
Muslim world is pretty diverse in color. And many of them are way whiter than me. As a Mediterranean I have a beautiful dark olive tone on my skin.
Palestinians are not occupying anything. So there’s no problem with their presence in that territory. Also if we defend free inmigration we should have accepted free inmigration of the Israel people to Palestine. So Israeli presence on former Palestinian-only land is not a problem.
A diverse country should be the solution. If Israelites want to live there they are free to do so. If Palestinians want to live there they are free to do so.
They both should be able to live side by side. And both groups should forget their Gods, because Gods does not exist.
Let’s add: “Jihadism is dangerous”
“Hamas is a terrorist organisation”
“Innocent should not die no matter if they were born in Tel Aviv or in Gaza”
“7 of October of 2023 was a terrorist attack”
“Situation in a conflict zone where both sides has been killing each other for decades is not simple and has no simple solution”
“Blindly supporting muyahidins, I mean, intifada, has not a good historic record”
“A Hamas led Palestine would be very similar to any other Islamic dictatorship, which is not good for Palestinians, specially women and LGBT”
Under any circumstances innocents should die, and anyone (ANYONE) killing civilians is a piece of shit. But the fact that Israel government is a Piece of Shit does not mean that Hamas is not also a Piece of Shit. Some people seems to forget that when it comes to codemn the cruelties inflicted in that region.
Let’s just not have this deeply embarrassing virtue-signalling.
If we didn’t signal our virtues, nothing would ever happen.
People MUST speak their feelings about things or the very worst things go unchallenged.
What you meant to say is “Let’s not make me cringe by making me think about things that have deeply divisive social consequences in either one direction or another, yet I keep getting bombarded with messages that I need to take a side on this issue, why can’t I just play video games in peace.”
Perhaps, but this is just mutual masturbation, and Lemmy is a total echo chamber. You can challenge things when you hear them, in the real world. In my experience it helps to treat this as a teaching opportunity, while understanding that you can’t bully people into a different point of view. I don’t play video games.
An entire generation of people have been all but ruined because their parents raised them saying “Don’t believe anything on the internet, it’s not the real world” and as a result it’s become the place where we all get all of our information, opinions and news and do most of our social interactions, and yet have this “out” we can always pull when it makes us uncomfortable.
Don’t like what some people somewhere think or say? Don’t need to engage or weigh in, retreat to a bubble. Don’t like what someone said about your comment? Say the whole thing isn’t real, call light to the “bubble” while still being in it.
It’s so, so many people. Just avoiding uncomfortable realities, repeating lines that sound like they work to stop arguments or discomfort, not actually engaging with anything in a way that would challenge your own feelings or beliefs.
Well, there’s some truth to that as well.
I can even agree, to a degree.
You see - if Hamas would have an upper hand against Israel, it would absolutely direct forces to massacre Jews and kickstart apartheid and everyone would be cheering for Israel and against Palestine.
But here we are, with Israel being bigger and stronger and using its advantage to raze Palestine to the ground along with innocent people who did nothing to deserve this. And that’s why people are pro-Palestine, really.
Also, while women and LGBT folks may suffer in their rights under an Islamic dictatorship, this is kinda better than just being dead. Israel does just that, and many in the Israeli command have made it very clear they do not care about the rights of Palestinian civilians.
I do understand that people tend to feel more inclined to side with the “weak part” of a fight. But being the weak part does not mean being in the right.
Both sides of a conflict can be wrong, even if someone is imposing their wrong on the others by a stronger use of force.
But I know how Hamas would masacrate Israeli civilians if given the chance and I cannot support that.
We need to thing a third way, different to what both sides are currently proposing and trying to do.
I think figures like Gandhi or MLK showed how to fight oppression without going into blatant murder and Jihad.
good thing that Hamas only exists because of Israeli support, not just via suitcases of money, but also due to a thorough expunging of moderate agnostic opposition! and hamstringing the fatwa forces during the Hamas-Fatwa civil war where Hamas took over Gaza (Hamas won some local elections, but at the time it was still part of the Palestinian state)
That’s pretty clear. Same happened with Al Qaeda and the USA.
So it amazes me when people follow hamas propaganda so easily.
It is not a “conflict zone” and it is not “complicated”. It is classical settler colonialism with the inevitable goal of ethnically cleansing and genociding the native population. By this logic the Nazi “Lebensraum” ideology of invading Poland, systematically murdering not only Jews and other minorities, but death-Squadding entire villages to then settler their own people on the land would somehow be “complicated”.
I suppose we live in different realities where 7 of October never happened or where missiles are not raining every day over Israel trying to indiscriminately killing people
If we live in different realities there’s nothing to argue.
In my reality there has not been found any extermination camps. And the lots of civilians killed are killed like civilians are killed in most wars. Shitty but not comparable to ww2 Germany.
There’s a conflict, there is a war between two tyrant and radical organizations. Israel Army (Supported by USA) and Palestine Army(Supported by Islamic countries and terrorist organizations), and both are being pretty shitty and trying to exterminate the other one.
IDF is literally making tiktoks braggin about killing unarmed random people. Doctors in Gaza report children executed with single shots to the head, indicating IDF snipers deliberately hunting children. We’ve seen people burned alive, people beheaded, unarmed people hunted down by drones, clearly marked aid convoys blown up, journalists assasinated with precision strikes… And Gaza looks very similar to Stalingrad in being a field of rubble.
The scale is not the same and Israel is not running extermination camps (yet). But on the military side it has a lot of similarities to Eastern Front Wehrmacht.
Have you ever follow a war?
That happens in Gaza, happens in Yemen, happens in western sahara, happens in Ukraine, happens in Irak and syria, happens in every place there is a war…
It’s not different to any other war. As bad as all the others.
The Holocaust didn’t cause the impression it had because those things. Not because they killed people, but because of the scale and the industrial method of killing those people. Without those two factors killing, torturing, destroying people, and even ethic cleansing is just a Wednesday in any war.
Hamas is the resistance AGAINST a terrorist organization, sweetie.
Jihad is not dangerous when foreign countries are occupying your land and killing your people.
Hell, Jihad is not dangerous period. It’s the context in which the Jihad is performed that has the potential to be dangerous.
My word! I simply had no idea that 9/11 and all the car bombings performed by ISIS in the late 2000s were not dangerous! You have no idea how much better that makes me feel.
It’s surprising to see how many people don’t know what Jihad even is.
You’ll be surprised to learn that none of these things fall under Jihad. I kindly request you do a little bit of research.
WoW! Just WoW!
XXI century and people defending Jihadism. Which is literally killing the infidel because your imaginary friend Allah told you so.
I suppose killing innocent and children, and imposing a medieval oppression on society is ok in your moral book if it is for the glory of Allah.
I suppose that you support then the murder of my family members who had died in the Jidhadist bombings in Madrid. The murder of a innocent teacher surely did a lot for resisting the evil west attacking their peaceful countries which surely don’t behead homosexuals.
It looks like you have a lack of understanding of what Jihad even is, as well as the application of Jihad in war.
For example, take this:
Both of these comments wildly contradict Islamic doctrine as accepted by the majority of Muslims - lose the bias for a second and do a bit of research; you’ll see what I mean.
Additionally,
It’s quite rude to start throwing insults at basically everyone who believes in God based on your own misconceptions, or even otherwise. A level-headed discussion where insults don’t start randomly getting thrown around would do far better for everyone here.
Religion is not real. To myself belief in any God is an insult to human intelligence.
I would never support any religion. As religion is the dead of freedom and a wildcard to torture and oppression.
And religions that support the Holy War are just plain evil.
You tell my what justification there is to call Jihad over my country, as it was called by a Caliphate and we suffered several terrorist attacks over it. My people have been living here since before Mohammed invented his religious scam. What possibly justification does anyone has to kill innocent people to conquer my land for the glory of Allah? People DIED over that, so don’t tell my I’m not understanding things, because I clearly understand that people who were alive are now dead because they called the Jihad on us .
You can say whatever you want but your lies won’t bring the dead from their graves.
Reading your comment, I understand that I cannot clear up the various misconceptions (that I perceive) you have, which seem to be the result of complicated external factors and have deep emotional roots.
Sorry for wasting your time.
Allah knows best.
Please. How do you even talk about my “complicated external factors with emotional roots” when you just believe what you believe because you were indoctrinated by a religion, probably since they day you were born.
My morals come from the rational thinking and does not include justifying murder. Can you say the same?
Yes, I can. But I suppose you won’t agree anyways? Either way, it’s all good.
I think you need to be more explicit with your first statements. Any line fewer than 5 words is too vague. It should be long and read like it was scrawled over an entire vehicle.
You won’t be happy with your opinion here. Lemmy is a pretty pro-terrorist place and gleefully ignore what Hamas, Mullah, Taliban (just look at Afghanistan) and all the other did, do and stand for. But thanks for your effort.
I’m just even surprised by the term “Free” Palestine.
Who would be Free in that supposed country?
Women would be free? No, they will be subjected to their husbands will.
Children would be free? No, they would be indoctrinated in Islam their whole life.
LBGT people would be free? No, they will be executed.
Non muslisms would be free? No, thay will be second class citizens.
Regular men would be free? No, they will have to follow the Coran or else.
What it is proposed by Hamas is not a Free Palestine, not by any definition of Free that I know.
Free from occupation…
Not the occupation of an Islamic Caliphate.
Changing one tyrant for another does not make you free.
Also if Israel citizens are “occupying” that place. What do you suggest to do with them are they not welcome there?, illustrate me on the solution, but please do not use the words “final solution”.
Because sorry to break your bubble, Hamas does not propose peacefully coexistence of jews and Muslims on the same land.
Israel is occupying Palestinian land… we want to be free of occuaption. Not sure why you bring Islam into this since Palestinian society is quite diverse and encompasses many different perspectives and religions. I myself am a Palestinian atheist.
My suggestion is: one democratic state of Palestine for Jews, Muslims, Christians, whenever the fuck lives there. Democratic voting, a President.
“final solution” is a now used by Israeli officials to describe Gaza so rofl this is not even a serious convo now. You are just gaslighting and talking to a person in your head.
I would be down with making the whole land a unique democratic state, free to anyone to vote or belief whatever they want like any democratic nation.
But I’m sorry to say that no side of the conflict seeks that. Not Hamas, not the Israeli government. Both just seek total extermination of the other side.
Most of current Palestine is not only Muslim, but also pretty radical about their beliefs, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles, there’s no sugar coating it.
I seek it. I’m one side in this too. There are many Palestinians and many Israelis who just want to have normal lives and full human rights for themselves and others.
I think you then might want to learn more about current Palestine, which is much more diverse than you describe.
Tell me, what should be done about the problem of Arabs and other brown skinned peoples currently occupying your God-given covenant and sacred land? Should the methods of the past be utilized - that they shall be put to the sword, they and their women and children, their livestock and all that loves in that land, their high places thrown down, and the Temple rebuilt?
Firstly if you think Muslims are brown skinned you have an incredibly narrow vision of the world.
Muslim world is pretty diverse in color. And many of them are way whiter than me. As a Mediterranean I have a beautiful dark olive tone on my skin.
Palestinians are not occupying anything. So there’s no problem with their presence in that territory. Also if we defend free inmigration we should have accepted free inmigration of the Israel people to Palestine. So Israeli presence on former Palestinian-only land is not a problem.
A diverse country should be the solution. If Israelites want to live there they are free to do so. If Palestinians want to live there they are free to do so.
They both should be able to live side by side. And both groups should forget their Gods, because Gods does not exist.
Welcome to the Middle East, please do try to stand up in a synagogue in Jerusalem and say this out loud.
I’ don’t think those are the ones who will behead me if I say that…
And thinking otherwise is just delusional and irrational given the data we have.