Does federation have a bit of a learning curve? No doubt.
Is Lemmy buggy as heck? Absolutely.
But I don’t think that really justifies a lot of the comments I’m seeing in Reddit alternatives threads that it’s hard to figure out. The front page feed and sort options are very similar to Reddit. Searching for same-instance communities is not too difficult. Posting, commenting, and voting are all quite intuitive. What’s the problem?
Edit: I do think terminology is a bit of an issue. I can tell a lot of people don’t understand “instance” vs. “community” at first. “Magazine” is the biggest offender here. That’s a very unintuitive term.
I feel like certain users are echoing others in terms of the “oh it’s too hard/complicated” - I don’t know, imo not really just sign up, subscribe to your mags of interest which will pull across the fediverse and engage (up/down/comment) as much as you like lol… really not that hard but I guess change is hard for people (but then it’s not really much a seismic change? I don’t know - I guess I like trying new things).
It isn’t hard to sign up for. No one is saying that is the case. It gets confusing when people start talking about adding subscriptions from other instances and how you can copy and paste the link and subscribe. That right there is where 95% of the people on the internet stop caring.
If the developers of Lemmy and the wider Fediverse ever get that fleshed out in an intuitive way I think popularity will go pretty fast.
That and long term if there is a way for information to be collectively backed up so that if some owner shuts down an instance everything isn’t gone.
Agreed. It still is a pain to follow subs on other instances, especially within Jeroba. I know you’re supposed to copy the !sub@instance into the search field, but it never comes up.
Kbin doesn’t presently auto-hyperlink the !sub@instance text.
I expect that it will in the future.
It will in the next update. See https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/pulls/317
The first step is completely different from anything else you’ve ever done
“Pick an instance to sign up for”
This does not compute. What is an instance? Why do I have to pick? Which one should I pick? Compared to
“Create an account at reddit.com” makes sense and is something everyone has done before.
It doesn’t matter how simple the answers to those questions are, the fact that the very first step requires multiple explanations is huge, and will always be a barrier to entry.
Even a low barrier to entry tends to significantly improve the signal-to-noise ratio in discussions.
So, I’m fine with people that can’t get past making a simple, almost irrelevant, decision as step 1 of gaining access… not gaining access.
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You’re describing an internet that doesn’t exist anymore and hasn’t for decades.
A greater percentage of reddit is younger than some of them realise. So many redditors are going to be used to new reddit, and plug-and-play services in general. Kbin and Lemmy look like old.reddit, and they require them to understand the concept of what a ‘server’ is to even get started. This is knowledge they’ve never needed before to use the services they want to use.
Imagine spending all your life eating McDonald’s and then somebody told you homemade burgers are way better quality, taste better, cheaper, etc; then when you ask how to get a taste of those bad boys they start with informing you that you’d need to grill them. It’s not hard, it’s just new.
they require them to understand the concept of what a ‘server’ is to even get started.
I’ve known 5 year olds start minecraft servers. And understand that each “world” is an “instance”. But that’s aside the point, as you’re right that even Help-Desk IT people struggle to understand the difference between computer and server.
It’s not hard, it’s just new.
The “new” part is what gets people. All of this is new. Even the implementation of all of this “fediverse” is new. It will come with time! People probably didn’t understand email vs snailmail, and probably had an even harder time with SMS/IM vs email when all of that came about just over 20-30 years ago. Most of these “complications” are from people that grew up knowing that the “internet” is basically 5 or 6 social media sites for very specific uses, and those 5 or 6 sites are older than most of the people using them, so that’s all they know. Even for a dude in IT, the fediverse was a new concept to understand, and even difficult to understand how it could best be implemented for the masses.
Consider that slight entry barrier to be a feature. Do you really want the Fediverse experience to be a 100% copy of Reddit?
Reddit has been around for quite a while. There are those of us who used to be tech-savvy “back in the day” that don’t handle change either quickly or well. For a casual social-media only user, this can be similar to the experience of a cave-person discovering fire. There are bound to be questions, especially when dealing with multiple types of instances on the fediverse. If we want this to grow into its full potential, we NEED to be patient and welcoming to even the most technologically illiterate.
Yep, this. I’m old, and I used to be super technically literate, but not anymore. Now I’m happy to keep my kids alive, use my smartphone to run my life, and ask a lot of questions. It took me embarrassingly long to figure out how to subscribe to something, and I’m not even 100% sure I did.
I’m cranky for at least 2 days if I have to get a new work computer for any reason. I don’t want to lose my reddit communities, so I’m trying, but I won’t if people are just rude to start.
There are those of us who used to be tech-savvy “back in the day” that don’t handle change either quickly or well.
I feel personally attacked, lol.
The problem I find with the technologically illiterate is that they immediately blurt out what’s on their mind. They ask the same fucking questions over and over, without searching first. The signal to noise ratio drops way down and every day is the same shit.
I am more than happy to interact with people of all walks of life but the internet is very “Groundhog Day” compared with when techies were the only ones on here. I’m not sure what the solution is that gives us perpetual cake.
I’ve also noticed a pattern of people asking for the fediverse to just behave exactly like reddit and thinking ant architectural decision that differs from a users perspective is an antipattern
this platform doesn’t have search and as far as I understand, doesn’t want to have search. so where are you thinking people are supposed to search exactly?
I would love to see your tutorial about how to search for information here.
Um, unless I’m misunderstanding you, no, there is a search here. At the top of kbin pages is a magnifying glass icon that does search.
This is my first post…if my dumb old ass can figure it out, anybody probably can.
It makes no sense to me that there are separate forums for the same topic that have the same names other than “@instance”. IMO there should be a single place that is /politics which has the same posts and comments regardless of which instance you’re logged into. If these instances are “federated” with each other then they should act like a single shared space. Or at least that’s how it seems like it should work to me.
Hell no, I do not want this to happen because then you have lemmy tankies and exploding-head fascists all dog piling into normal discussions, saying preposterously stupid shit to spoil what you read as you scroll through the comments.
Wait so do communities not have mods?
I don’t know about other places, but at kbin each forum has mods.
Well, instances are all different, independent websites. As an admin, if I can’t name a community whatever I want on my own website, I’m probably not participating in this ecosystem.
Plus, 1000 times more posts get posted to r/bigsub than you or anyone ever reads, and 10,000 times as many comments. It creates an environment where no one is actually discussing anything, and are just jockeying for attention.
You won’t actually miss anything except for big vanity numbers by just choosing the community you like best for a topic and just… Ignoring the others.
Reddit was the same way.
You have /r/gaming. /r/games. /r/truegaming. /r/videogames. /r/videogame. Etc.
Each community was slightly different in subtle ways, but some people were subscribed to multiple (basically identical) communities. Others self-sorted into different communities based on moderation style and community vibes.
Not to mention that your idea of how federation should work kind of ignores moderation and community preferences. Communities hosted on Beehaw are tightly moderated. There may be other communities that want something less strict. How do these two reconcile with one another? What happens if a conversation is removed on one instance but kept around on another?
If local mods only have local power, they can get quickly overwhelmed as you effectively need a mod team on every single instance. Smaller instances wouldn’t necessarily have the manpower to have their own dedicated mods for literally everything.
There is no problem with similar communities. It wasn’t a problem on reddit and it won’t be a problem here.
In terms of people who didn’t fully understand the fediverse, there are two kinds of people:
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those who want to fully get their head around it first so they can make optimal decisions
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those who are happy to just jump in and learn by doing
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Fear and an unwillingness to try new things.
For example, some of the complaints that people had about Mastodon early on were just odd to me. They made such a big deal out of “you have to pick a server, no one understands that” or nitpicking UI interfaces between Mastodon and twt. They didn’t have logical arguments IMHO it was them just not being happy about change and not being honest about that.
Saying “I don’t want to deal with different servers within a single website” is illogical? Seems entirely logical to me. Anyone used to Reddit is going to be turned off to the whole messy fediverse thing. Me included. Legitimately, it evokes feelings of the dead on arrival Metaverse.
People want simplicity. We’re decades past the days of BBS boards.
It’s not a single website. And what’s with all the hate I see around here about BBS boards? BBS boards were great. I just want someone to loop me in about the hate. I just think with the fediverse we’re seeing a rise of a model that brings the best things about BBS boards to more modern web technologies
I used Joey for Reddit, it has better UI than Reddit. Yes, I have problem with UI on Lemmy, terminology is confusing. It will work out, somehow
Anything new is scary
Reddit is complicated, they just forgot.The digg users said reddit was ugly and they would never use such an ugly site.
I tried explaining reddit to a diehard forum user, why are all the replies out of order? why are upvotes changing the posting order? this is so complicated!Don’t explain, tell them where to start and how to start. then it explains itself.
I can’t help but think that people who describe the Fediverse as complicated joined reddit after the redesign…
Kbin is exactly like an old, stripped down version of old.reddit.
In kbins case you actually have a responsive admin and can actually find devs on here working on new features and tweaks (hey there!)
Super happy with how kbin has been going so far
This is 100% it. Also some people have only ever used iOS with the Reddit app and Twitter and Tiktok which are so easy to use a literal 3 year old can use it
I think this is also the cause of the squabbles.io Vs kbin/Lemmy split. Squabbles is like new Reddit, kbin is like old Reddit. And people like what they know
This last sentence is the crux of the matter. People don’t like change, but quickly forget that they spent time learning the site that they’re so familiar with.
People also forget that Reddit wasn’t built in a day and digg didn’t die in a day
I can’t put aside my sneaking suspicion that can’t figure out any of these tools: kbin, lemmy, mastodon, etc… Is more or less code for, “I have reach and influence on platform x, and I need can’t figure out how to be that person here.”
Can they setup an account? Can they read? Can they write? These seem to all be achievable. Can they influence? Well… should that be the goal?
I can’t either, but I’m also on the border of don’t care and actively glad. Maybe there won’t be such an Eternal September here. That would be a win.
“Magazine” is the biggest offender here. That’s a very unintuitive term.
Lmao what? For people born after 2010 maybe? Magazines have been a thing for decades and anyone over 20 is going to associate “magazine” with “series of articles about a topic”
“Magazine” implies little if any input from readers (letters to the editor being the exception). It doesn’t sound very interactive.
Not necessarily? I guess it depends on what magazines you read.
A lot of the magazines I’ve read over the years are collections of things submitted by readers. Model Railroader magazine is a bunch of model railroads submitted by people across the US. They’ll pick a few to feature, but they’re all basically submitted by readership and it’s fairly interactive.
Lego Magazine was the same way when I was a kid. While a lot of it was about upcoming Lego products, there was a significant section that featured Lego builds made and submitted by the community.
For newspapers, I’d absolutely agree that it implies an editorial staff and no input from readers. But magazines (to me) have always had a focus on community involvement.
IMO, it translates quite well to the web, and the fact that there’s a big ol’ “+” button with “add new article” as an option makes it pretty obvious that this isn’t just a static read-only place.
My main hangup was “make new post” vs “make.new article”. “Make new post” will make a Twitter-style short-form post in the “microblog” side; “make new article” goes as a Reddit-style self-post thread on the threads side. But once I understood that it was pretty straightforward, and I use both pretty regularly (articles for self-posts I’d normally post to Reddit, posts for little one-off thoughts or things I’d otherwise put on Twitter).
Kbin is planned to work with more fediverse stuff at some point as well. It already supports Pixelfed (Instagram) and PeerTube (YouTube). Mobilizon (fediverse event planner) support is on the roadmap, which would let event planning appear natively as well.
So if you ran a magazine based around a TV show, you’d be able to add a Mobilizon event that corresponds to when a new episode comes out. Then that event would serve as a “megathread” for episode discussion once the episode airs. It’s a pretty neat idea, since it intuitively reminds people when things are and gives the community a place to discuss.
I guess generally online the term magazine hasn’t been used often. Then again subreddit wasn’t either and that’s a made up word.
I was just thinking that. Subreddit is a dumb made up word that a corportation invented. Community and magazine are descriptors. Sublemmy or subbin are just people trying to map experiences from on platform to another, and are understandable, but I’d personally prefer to see us call them communities and magazines in the long term.
Bottom line. Subreddit. Dumb word. If you were able to learn that, you can learn “magazine”
Having “add new post” in the header on kbin it’s definitely something that will trip up people coming from Reddit. You need to add a new “article” which isn’t very intuitive
Took ne a few tries to figure that out. And what is a microblog even and why do we have it?
Microblogs are like tweets. I think posts from people you follow on Mastodon and similar federated microblogging platforms should appear there. I wish there was the option to merge the microblog and magazine feed. I don’t think having them separated is necessary on a platform like this.
It’s for Mastodon compatibility. Articles are like Reddit posts and microblogs are like tweets. You can post either from Kbin. Your articles will show up as community posts on Lemmy, and your microblogs will show up as toots on Mastodon.
